This started as a “letter to the editor” in the newsletter, but there was enough reaction that I thought I’d move it to my blog as an “explainer” that readers can find later, too.
Let’s start with the letter, from Premium subscriber Dale in Oregon:
I thoroughly enjoy every issue, including this one, and this is probably a very small gripe, but is it really necessary to add ‘Canada’ following ‘British Columbia’? I would hope most (all?) of your readers know British Columbia is a Canadian province. I have the same gripe about the Jeopardy TV show. The announcer always adds ‘Canada’ when introducing a contestant from that country, rather than just saying the particular province.
True is an American publication, so I don’t use the country for U.S.-based stories. Though in U.S. stories, the state, not just the city, is always identified. Even for New York City — there are cities named New York in other states, and in other countries. But no, I’m not sure “all” readers know B.C. is in Canada: that could well be a hard trivia question for someone in, say, eastern Europe. True has been read at some point in over 200 countries, though I gave up on trying to track country demographics years ago.
If I wrote of Rome, would I be talking about the one in Alabama, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, the other one in Kansas, Kentucky, Maine, Mississippi, Missouri, New York, Ohio (or Ohio or Ohio), Oregon, Pennsylvania (which is completely surrounded by Rome Township), Tennessee, or Wisconsin (or Wisconsin or Wisconsin)? Oh yeah, there’s one in Italy, too!
So yes, I follow the same rule for cities (and states or provinces) outside the U.S.: if a story is outside the U.S., it is made clear what city, state/province (if any), and country it’s in, though I’ll often skip provinces in small countries where the source publication doesn’t mention it. It has been that way, and worked well, for 32-1/2 years, and I guarantee changing it now would cause confusion later.
I also believe it is respectful of other countries to clearly identify them, and if there is anything we as Americans don’t need to do right now, “not increase a sense of disrespect for other countries” is high on the list.
As for Jeopardy!, an American show they clearly follow the same logic as the show can be seen in other countries.
Dale replied to say he “didn’t realize that was an editorial rule. I certainly understand the reasoning, which I hadn’t thought about.”
I’m not sure if I’d call it a “rule,” but most publications (including True) have a Style Guide for contributors and editors. The convention I use is probably a common style decision for internationally circulated publications.
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re: Dale’s comment that most Americans should already know that British Columbia is in Canada. There are Americans who think that New Mexico is part of Mexico, and that Hawaii is a foreign country. Oh and that Puerto Rico is also a foreign country. We are not the most geographically literate people.
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This (sigh) is True. -rc
Also true for the State of West Virginia! and it is not just from folks West of the Mississippi River or outside of the United States.
Plus, there are also Americans that, if you mention San Marino to them, would tell you it’s a part of Italy, and that the Faeroe Islands have faeries.
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Wait… they don’t?!!? 🙂 -rc
I lived in New Mexico for about 6 years. A dear lady’s account payment was late, and she was certain it had been sent. When it finally arrived, I noted that it had been postmarked in her southern California hometown. Then in Las Vegas, Nevada, then in Ciudad Juarez, Mexico (the country). It arrived at the correct destination of Las Vegas, New Mexico after some 14 days in transit. It had been addressed correctly, including the zip code. I concluded that her cursive handwriting was illegible to both the US Postal Service machine sorters and their human sorters. I called her back with the news, and we had a good laugh.
Amazingly crazy. One would think that the zip code would be what the post office would take into consideration first and not even look at the city and state at all.
It’s amazing to me how many papers don’t include the location in their online articles. It’s mostly limited to local papers, but I regularly run across random links, whether via Reddit, Facebook, Google News, or any number of other sources, and it’ll seem like they are talking about one location and it’s actually someplace completely different. It’d be really nice if more papers that publish their articles online listed out the full location name, rather than simply a city name. I’ve seen a number of small newspapers not even publish their city name, and you have to look at the paper’s name and then that ends up being ambiguous.
I’m also in Oregon, and you get some very interesting stories regarding Dallas, Detroit, Salem. While it’s typically fairly obvious when they are talking about the well known ones or the ones in Oregon, sometimes it can be tricky. Salem can be especially problematic as Salem, Oregon and Salem, Massachusetts are both decently well known.. Similarly, I run across articles talking about Portland, Maine and it takes a while to realize that it’s not about Portland, Oregon.
Overall, I approve of your decision to be more specific even when not strictly needed as, otherwise, it’d likely be too confusing.
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News organizations near state borders are big at screwing this up. They know their local audiences know that “Springfield” is either local or over the border, but the Internet is an international medium, and that audience often has no idea. Hence errors in True now and then where, because the source is in (say) X state, I’ll say Springfield, X, in the story, but it’s actually not: it’s actually just over the border in Y. Newspapers (and TV news operations) are no longer “local” when they publish online. -rc
Even in my short time in Corvallis, Oregon, I have learned that there is also a “Springfield” near here (as Arcie notes that name) and a Corvallis in Montana. We used to live in Hampton, VA. There are 26 of those in the USA. Lucky us!
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There’s a reason The Simpsons uses Springfield: there are a lot of them. As for Hampton… well, there’s a reason Holiday Corp. (which created the brand) named their new chain Hampton Inn! -rc
In regard to international readership and acknowledgment of place names, you might give some thought to the American tone of your writing. (This is not a complaint. I have been a happy reader since the beginning.) Since I have been living in Australia for 35 years I have lost touch with American terms which apparently are common there. Last issue you had an article about the railroad accident with a Waymo. I had to ask my American husband what a Waymo was since I had never heard of one. While Australia is influenced a lot by American TV and news, we still don’t have everything they do. Do you still consider yourself American now that you live on the high seas? Given the popularity of social media snippets about the Australian version of English, it’s common knowledge that we differ in many things. I think in Australian now and have to translate to American. So, don’t assume your international readership would know what a Waymo is.
Again, not a complaint at all. Until I moved here I didn’t realise how different our languages are. A lot of ours is British based but one does have to learn what a snag is, or that you used to be an ambo.
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A lot of points here! But the big one I can address easily: True indeed is an American publication as I grew up with American newspapers (and other journalism), went to an American journalism school to learn the “ideal” American-style of journalism, and (yes) do still have to consider myself an American citizen as I have to have a passport. And while I’m delighted to have friends here of different nationalities, including a fair number of Aussies, most residents are in fact American.
The lovely thing about being an Internet-based newsletter is that means pretty much everyone reading has Internet access, and can so easily check Waymo at Wikipedia and learn not just what it is, but what makes it controversial. As True is literally “about” promoting thought, I’m just not going to spend my time doing the thinking for readers to anticipate what they might not know about. Indeed, Waymo is only in a few cities in a few U.S. states, so most Americans haven’t seen one either. In fact, I’ve never seen one either, let alone ridden in one.
Oh, and last, I’ve had many foreign readers say they love to read the newsletter as it helps them learn the finer points of American English. I can’t let them down! -rc
I’m American, and I didn’t know what a Waymo was, either. I don’t think they’re legal in most places. Yet.
As far as newspapers and specifying locations, it’s more widespread than that. I did taxes for years, and also worked for a while compiling short biographies of people advising a government agency. I had trouble finding charity addresses for the taxes, and university and institution addresses for the bios. I couldn’t always tell what state they were in, or even what country. Finding a web page with contact information of any sort was surprisingly difficult. The bio work was about 15 years ago, so maybe things have improved. Hah.
Good for you re country/city names, too many think theirs is the only one, and for people overseas like me, you are doing the RIGHT THING.
For a good Aussie backpat, GOOD ON YER MATE.
As far as saying “Canada” after “British Columbia”…I think there’s another good reason besides the fact that TiT goes out to readers in many countries around the globe: it also goes out to readers in America.
You probably read the National Geographic study showing that about 11% of young citizens can’t find the continental US on a map, and about 30% can’t find the Pacific Ocean. So I think it’s a great idea to include “Canada” after the province. I just wouldn’t expect some people to point to either of them. Especially anybody who thinks the whole place would make one state. Jesus wept.
Needless to say, I realize that TiT readers—subscribers, anyway—are of unrivalled intellectual puissance—I meant no reflection on them.
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I suppose it is true that while my readers skew toward more intelligent and more educated, there are also the folks I particularly love: those striving to learn more despite perhaps not having the advantage of good schooling. “Obliviots” (don’t care about facts, and not interested in learning even though they have the capacity to do so) are the least likely to read the newsletter. But yes, as other commenters have noted, there is a strong contingent that are completely clueless about their own country, let alone other countries. -rc
Talking about travel I mentioned a vacation to Australia. A friend asked if “we visited the island”. I said we didn’t go to Tasmania. He didn’t recognize Tasmania, neither as an island nor as a state. He meant the big island just to the east, couldn’t remember the name. We eventually determined that he was talking about New Zealand.
We couldn’t get him to accept that Australia & New Zealand were two different countries. Nor would believe NZ isn’t “just off the coast”. He wouldn’t look at any data we tried to show him.
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That is the difference between ignorance and obliviocy. -rc
More than happy with the details of which US state the story is from, or from outside the US, the country.
I do wish you’d put the full name of the US state rather than the two letter codes. Not all of us non-US people know the US postal codes.
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I don’t use the two-letter postal codes, and never have. I have always used the news style, and have maintained a guide for them for decades (scroll down the page just a bit). -rc
I emailed this to Randy today…
I am a little behind with my emails due to vacation, but I have a British Columbia story for you….
Years ago, I was traveling for business and I was working at British Columbia Children’s Hospital installing software in their CT Scanner. I needed to get a cash advance on my AMEX, so I contacted AMEX customer support to find out what bank ATMs I could use. The call went something like this.
I am in Vancouver, British Columbia…
What state is that in….
It is British Columbia, Canada…
We have many banks in District of Columbia
No, it is not in the US, it is in Canada.
Can you go to Washington?
No, it is a different country. I can’t drive to Washington…
We have no atms in British Columbia. We will transfer you to another department and have cash delivered to you.
New person: Bank of Montreal can be used, there is one 2 miles from your location.
Regarding the Jeopardy portion of the discussion, as any avid Jeopardy fan would know, Alex Trebek was from Canada, and never failed to put in a plug for Canada any chance he got, especially if a contestant or a Jeopardy answer had any connection to Canada whatsoever. (He became a naturalized U.S. citizen in 1998.)
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Though I’m quite sure they were and are equally attentive to naming other countries. -rc